My team of instructors and I just completed teaching at the 2024 Pat Rogers Memorial Revolver Round Up (“PRMRR”), at the world famous Gunsite Academy in Paulden, Arizona. On the long drive home, we solved lots of the world’s problems. One topic of discussion was things our students could do that would enhance their training experience. What follows are a compilation of thoughts that we developed from teaching numerous classes over the years.
Editor’s Note: We’re proud to welcome Friend of RevolverGuy, Bruce Cartwright to our pages. Bruce is a talented instructor, and we’re grateful that he’s volunteered to share some of his accumulated wisdom with us. Welcome aboard, Sir! -Mike
By the numbers
First, unless you only have a snub nose revolver, bring a full size service revolver to class. I am a huge fan of Airweight S&W revolvers. The thought of firing one for two or three days in most revolver classes makes me cringe. Yes, you should practice with what you carry, including the S&W J-frame revolvers, but you will tend to get more out of a class if you bring a full size gun. Shooting tiny J-frame guns is hard. They recoil substantially and are hard to hold on to for long training sessions. The slightest misalignment of the sights results in misses. While J-frame revolvers have their virtues, they are not a good choice for a newer shooter trying to learn the fundamentals of running a revolver. Additionally, if you are what Gunsite calls a “seasoned” shooter and are having trouble seeing the sights, bring an adjustable sighted revolver. Adjustable sights are way easier to see than typical trough sights found on S&W Model 10s etc. Also, put some bright model paint on the front sight. A front sight painted in blaze orange is your friend.
Second, if you can at all afford it, bring two full size guns. If your primary gun fails to work, being able to quickly obtain a spare will reduce your stress level and allow you to get back to the task of learning how to run a revolver. Ideally, it should be the same make and model so it can use the same holster/speed loaders etc.
Third, bring a gun chambered for .38 Special. We have all lived through various ammunition shortages. The single most common revolver caliber is still the ubiquitous .38 Special. While I love big bore calibers like the .44 Magnum and .45 ACP, having a gun you can easily find ammunition for makes a huge amount of sense.
Fourth, please ensure that your guns are sighted in. If you show up to class with a weapon that is not sighted in, one of two things will typically happen. First, your instructor either has to slow the entire class down to accommodate you, or, if he is lucky enough to have another instructor assisting him, he has to detail the other instructor to help the shooter with the un-zeroed gun. Perhaps you are not sure how to zero your revolver. Easy, give your instructor a call or email. I am always glad to help students with issues like this. Another avenue that folks can take, even red blooded American males, is (“gasp”) read the manual that comes with the gun. Most manufacturers want you to be able to successfully use their product. Additionally, by using guns chambered in .38 Special, the industry usually regulates fixed sight guns (Like S&W’s Model 10 or Ruger’s older Speed Six line) for 158 grain service ammunition. There are some manufacturer’s that regulate .38 Special guns for ammunition using 130 grain bullets. The reality is that those bullet weights are common enough that by shooting several rounds of each ammunition, you can pretty quickly determine which weight your gun is sighted in for, and purchase accordingly.
Fifth, bring plenty of loading devices. If your instructor says you need two speed loaders, there is no penalty in bringing eight of them. Having more speed loaders/quick strips (some call them “Slow Strips”) or loop/2X2 pouches than is required will tend to make your life way easier than the minimum. What’s the old joke? If it wasn’t good enough, it wouldn’t be the minimum. Bring lots.
Sixth, unless you have significant time and experience using inside the waistband holsters, bring a strong side outside the waistband hip holster. This is the easiest type of holster to learn to draw from. That all said, check with your instructor about the holster you intend to bring. Most instructors are more than willing to help a dedicated student work with different holsters so they can learn the necessary skills for drawing from a new rig.
Seventh, bring an old tooth brush and actually carry it to the firing line with you. At this year’s PRMRR I and my staff instructors watched several students struggle with sluggish cylinder rotation that was easily remedied with a quick brushing out of unburnt powder that lodged under the extractor star. As an instructor, I can tell you which of my students are old hands at running revolvers. They bring a tooth brush with them. Funny, those folks never seem to have reliability issues with their wheel guns. While you are at it, bring a screw driver or set of screw drivers that fit the screws in your blaster. Some cleaning gear is very helpful as well.
Eighth, bring a dump pouch. A dump pouch is your friend. People never seem to have enough pockets. A revolver class, by its very nature, has lots of small gizmos and a dump pouch can be extremely useful. My suggestion is to acquire the version sold by the Gunsite Proshop and made by the Wilderness Tactical. It can be easily donned and doffed and attaches via a Velcro strip. You don’t need (or usually want ) one of the Maxpedition jumbo pouches. Cost of the Wilderness pouch is about $45. It is worth every penny.
Ninth, keep your dominant hand front pants pocket empty. When you come to the line, bring a handful of cartridges and put them in that pocket. Why? Your instructor my run long or give you the opportunity to run a drill a second time. By having extra ammunition on you, you are not delaying the class to run back to the bench to get more ammo. If your instructor tells you that you will need 24 rounds for a drill, having fifty or so rounds on you is not going to get you in hot water. If you wear skin tight jeans but have had the forethought to buy a Wilderness dump pouch, you can always carry extra rounds in it and still look fashionably cool at the same time.
Tenth, learn how to “administratively” handle your revolver. If you are completely new to revolvers, this is something you will learn (and a good instructor should address this for very new students). For folks that have a grasp of the basics, being able to smoothly load and unload your revolver is a huge benefit because it allows you to spend time actually learning the material in the class rather than fighting with your revolver.
Eleventh, bring a note pad. It seems very few students take notes any more. That is certainly up to the student but if you are paying good money to learn a new skill, it tends to pay big dividends if you take some notes. I typically use a reporter’s notebook and re-write any notes I take after class.
Twelfth, there is an old adage in the law enforcement/SWAT world: “Do Work.” You should always be looking to “do work” when you are in class. The gent next to you is struggling and is talking with the instructor? Do work. Take the opportunity to paste his target (assuming he has seen the results). New targets need hung? Ask to assist the instructor in hanging them. Once your target has been taped/pasted after a drill, head back to the assembly area, resupply with ammunition, and make any quick notes you need to know. If the instructor gives you a ten minute break, please be mindful and get back to the assembly area on time and ready to go. Time is the one commodity that we are all short of.
Thirteenth, ask questions. At my company, our philosophy is that the only stupid question is the one that remains unasked. Trust me if you don’t understand something, there is a very high likelihood someone else didn’t either. At any rate, you are paying for instruction. Get the most out of it. Be sure you understand what is being taught.
Fourteenth, if you struggle with a physical infirmity, let the instructor know. While there are some things that might not be fixable, many issues are. I recently had a shooter who had a shoulder injury. We found out about it late into the class. Had we known about the issue earlier, I think we could have provided a solution (holster change) that would have benefitted him. Some folks struggle with physical issues and do not want to make a big deal about it or call attention to themselves. I get that. If that describes you, ask to speak privately with your instructor to see what might be accomplished. I have had shooters who are confined to wheel chairs or required to use a walker. We figured out a way to resolve their concerns so they were able to train. Folks who have physical infirmities tend to need defensive firearms training and as a community, we want to help these folks access the training they need.
Fifteenth, have a good attitude. Your instructor may teach a particular technique that you don’t like or doesn’t seem to make sense. By keeping an open mind, you have a great chance to try something new in a controlled environment that may be a life saver. That’s the point of this exercise.
Lastly, have a sense of humor and a thick skin. Both of these things have served me well. Being able to laugh at yourself is the mark of a squared away adult. I can tell you that I never learned anything by doing it correctly. I typically learned some technique by messing it up.
Parting shot
As this article was generated during this year’s PRMRR, it is fitting that I leave you with a Pat Rogers story.
There I was in Harrisonburg, VA attending a Pat Rogers Carbine Operators class in October 2010. For the purposes of this story, it should be noted that Pat knew that I was in the FBI. He may have genuflected during my introduction to fellow students and mentioned something about me being an instructor. So now all the cops in class know who I am.
I load my carbine. On the first round, my magazine departs my carbine. I look down. I groan. I suspect some mention of my failure may be made to the class. Then I hear Pat exclaim, “I must be a bad instructor. Here it is 11:42 AM on Training Day 1 and I have failed to teach the ‘feeb’ how to properly load a carbine.1 I must be a bad instructor.” (Author’s Note: I had no idea that such a small Irishman could talk that loud…)
Pat then clears the line and assembles the students and awards me my coveted EAG Tactical “Moose Cock” patch. Everybody’s having a good laugh. Was it embarrassing? You damn bet it was. But I learned two things from that incident: First, to “Push/Pull” the damn magazine to make sure it is fully seated (want to guess how many times since then my magazine has fallen out of my M4?), and; Two, Pat gave a damn about me as a student. I suspect Pat was testing me to see if I could laugh at myself. That’s the day Pat and I became friends. As Pat used to say, “learning has occurred.”
*****
endnotes
1.) “Feeb”: A nickname sometimes given to FBI agents
Very good article. I was especially taken by the “use a full-size revolver” advice. When I practice on the range and shoot my annual LEOSA quals, I shoot my J-frame carry revolver. But a few weeks ago, at my first IDPA match (the missus said I needed a hobby), I used a K-frame. The match fell on my late father’s 100th birthday, and I used the 4-inch Model 15 that he carried on duty. I thought it was fitting.
(I was first in the revolver division, but that was because I was the only revolver shooter. I didn’t plan that, it just happened that way. The important thing was, I got to shoot my dad’s gun on his birthday.)
I bet he was smiling, watching you do it! Great way to pay tribute!
Old 1811:
As to shooting full size guns, I find folks tend to learn necessary skills better on a “big gun” and that once they master those skills, running “baby guns” tends to be easier.
That said, good on you for running your father’s duty gun. His generation of lawmen enforced a lot of law with plain jane revolvers. They were a different breed.
Mr. Cartwright . . . welcome aboard. There’s a special room we have for recovering attorneys. It’s nicely padded, relatively soundproof, and adult beverages are available at twice the normal retail price. Revolver folks ignore the trend of trial and appellate decisions on the latest and greatest carry guns and training protocols as published in the Official Gun Rag Reports. That said, You have made many salient points that a lot of folks may tend to overlook in revolver training classes – or any firearm training class for that matter.
There is no such thing as too much ammo. Bring twice the ammo that the course recommends, and there is also no such thing as too many actual speedloaders. Speedloaders can be lost or damaged. They’re cheap to replace – bring more than you think you’ll need.
Equipment: There is very little more aggravating than uncomfortable and/or incompatible equipment. Make sure your holster works with your gun. Trying to put an L frame in a K frame holster isn’t going to work well. Same applies to speed loaders. K and L frame holsters and speed loaders may look alike, but aren’t necessarily compatible. Cargo pants are nice with their ample pouches/pockets to dump ammo in. Also, if you have .357 revolvers – bring those. Not only do they tend to be an ounce or two heavier than their .38 Special counterparts, but if you have ever had some .357 ammo accidentally mixed in with your .38 Specials, you won’t be left on the sideline (ask me how I know).
Taking notes: No matter how great you think your memory is, you’re not going to remember everything. You’ll also tend to get details mixed up. “Did he make five or six separate points ? In all the confusion, do I feel lucky?” Along with taking notes – Ask Questions. There’s no such thing as a stupid question (okay, well, there IS, but not in this context). No one knows it all (gasp, cough, wheeze). Even if the question is only to expand on the subject matter, there’s always at least one other person in the class that might have the same question. Also, what you think you know might not be exactly accurate, so getting clarification is essential.
A very good point is made about using a full size revolver. Snub guns are fine for about 50 rounds, after which things get hinky. Medium frame revolvers can be shot pretty much all day, especially with .38 Special loads, and the user won’t feel like they have gone five rounds with Mike Tyson. If one revolver is good, then two revolvers are better. Murphy is alive and well: If you have one gun, it will hiccup. Two guns, all will generally run well. A couple of S&W L frame or Ruger GP100 will be a joy to get you through the class.
Have extra rags with you. Between shoot sessions, give the guns a quick wipedown, especially under the extractor and around the cylinder window. It’s a lot easier to do a quick wipedown than have unburned powder gum your gun up and shut you down mid session.
Last, but definitely not least: Having a positive attitude is imperative. Without it, you’re experience will range between unpleasant and miserable. Factor in a good sense of humor, a bit of self deprecation, and leaving your ego at the door, and you should come away with a lot more confidence in yourself and your equipment.
S. Bond:
Great points. Thanks for the kind words!
From one “Bruce” to another, this is great advice. I’m registered for the PRMRR again this year, and having attended it before, these points are spot-on, and mirror exactly what I learned at my first Roundup, and plan on doing differently this time around. For those who haven’t attended one of these events yet, take this article to heart.
– Bruce
Bruce:
Thank you for the kind words. I will be teaching at this year’s PRMRR. Please look me up so I can put a face to a name. See you in November!
If I were a law enforcement officer carrying a Smith Registered Magnum revolver I’d feel well armed for sure.
Spencer:
One of the few regrets I have concerning my career is that by regulation we were not allowed to purchase our service weapon. Believe me, I’d have been happy to pay for that Registered Magnum.
Solid advice from one superbly adept triggerman; looking forward to training with “Sensei” Cartwright & cohort again in the Fall.
Sir:
Thank you. Your comments mean a lot.
Our mutual friend sends his regards.
Safe travels and see you in November!
The full-size revolver makes sense if you’re restricting people to .38 Special, I suppose. I can shoot a .32 snub all day, but I don’t even bother with .38 snubs unless they’re steel-framed.
Yes Sir Jonathan. Steel, always steel.
Count me in the Steel Frame Club, too. The .32 snubs certainly don’t wear you out from recoil, but there are other benefits to bringing a bigger gun to class, like a longer sight radius, easier reloads, etc. I support the philosophy off training with what you carry, but a bigger gun can be helpful in a long format class
Johnathan:
I have been hearing good things, especially in terms of reduced recoil levels, with 32 caliber revolvers. The owner of Lost River Ammunition is a dear friend, and he is amazed about the low recoil and high penetration of 32 rounds that he loads commercially.
Sir,
Thank you for the great instruction at roundup! My Kimber may have choked I’m afraid… I hope the next time I train with you I’ll have a Colt Viper. I’m going to continue to train with what I carry, but it’s comfortable to shoot, and I carry three inch barrels. Just wish my eyes were still good- don’t think I’ll be replacing them any time soon.
Riley:
No worries about your Kimber. As counter intuitive as it is, I’d rather have students have trouble with their gear in class. In class you have the time to diagnose problems and come up with fixes. Problems are much easier to solve on the one-way pistol range versus the two-way pistol range…
Please touch base with me this fall so I can put a face to a name. I have heard good things about the Colt Viper and will be interested to hear your report.
Bruce, Thank you for this fine article and a great session at the Roundup last November.
I’d only add a few ideas…
1) If you’re running speed-loaders (especially push-loaders) look for purpose-built loading blocks that arrange your ammo so you can quickly fill all your loaders at the break. Safariland makes the ones I use for my old six-shot GP100 and my newer K-frames, respectively. Rapid Loader makes the one I’m using with my new seven-shot GP100. MakerShot made the ones I use with my five-shot Js. Speedbeez makes them for my 43C. There are others of course.
2) In addition to running a full-size or at least all-steel gun, I’ve learned (the hard way, of course) that throttling your ammo back to 38 Special 130 grain ball is a great idea. Unless your agency only gives you free +P training ammo why the self-flagellation? At the Roundup most of what we learn happens before the shot breaks.
Thanks again. Look forward to seeing you you in November!
Michael Brady
Michael:
Good suggestion about loading blocks. I didn’t even think anyone still made them.
As to using 38 versus 38+P, that tends to make sense. I shoot enough of the hot stuff to maintain familiarity with the heavier recoiling ammo. I shot so much full power stuff over the years, that I got somewhat habituated to it. That said, I think there are better alternatives to full power magnum ammo these days.
Please reach out at this fall’s PRMRR so I can put a face to name. See you then.
Great advice.
We used to say, “Look for work.” “Do work” is better.
“Recovering attorney” –you never fully recover! Moved up the food chain to road deputy, never looked back.
Got one foot in my home state, the other in MT for the forever home.
Look you up one of these days.
Viejo Lobo:
Thanks for the kind words.
At the risk of offending someone, Montana is a gorgeous place to live. I look forward to meeting you. Stay safe.
Thank you for the good article, Mr. Cartwright. The wisdom in your advice could save people who are pondering taking a class lots of heartache. A hearty “harumph” to your response in the comments about fixing problems on the one-way (vs. the two way) range being the preferable method! I went to a shotgun class many moons ago where some folks paid a penalty for what they didn’t know. One couple had really nice Benelli Super 90’s that steadfastly refused to run with the reduced recoil buckshot and birdshot that they had brought. Another husband/wife team had been sold 3″ magnum slugs to fulfill the slug requirement in the syllabus. It was quite apparent when the gentleman torched off the first one while zeroing that he was unaware of what he was about to receive. The grip he used on his 870 gifted him a split lip and bloody nose; his wife’s knocked her from her kneeling position to an unplanned expedient sitting position. My buddy and I had filled the trunk of our G-ride with agency purchased Federal reduced recoil slugs, standard buckshot and some high brass long range birdshot that we had tested prior and knew would run faithfully in his Benelli. We had enough to supply ammo to these people so they could continue training. They could have really benefitted from advice like yours- good classes cost too much to be ruined by poor ammo choices! Thanks again.
Great article. Much of it applies to ANY training event. I just attended my first Revolver training course and took my wife. She completed a 3-day Pistol class then the 2-day Revolver in successive weekends with virtually NO shooting in 20 years … and was successful in both because of valuable patient attentive coaches.
We learned of the Revolver course at the previous weekend Pistol course and signed up … then it was a mad rush to get all the guns, ammo, loaders, etc ready when I really didn’t know just what we would need or use. She was a trooper and the staff was supportive. She shot SEVEN different guns and did everything asked of her … just a little slower. I think the training staff appreciated seeing a new woman shooter on the line … more than half the class was instructors of various ilk. She jumped into the “deep end … with the sharks” and persevered and learned well.
A BIG THANKS to guys like you who give your best to teach folks like us who don’t know, but want to learn.
Chris, CONGRATULATIONS to your wife for doing such an excellent job, and to you for being so supportive and getting her access to quality training. I hope the two of you will enjoy and learn from the great resources here on RevolverGuy. We’ve got lots of great articles on training topics here.
In tomorrow’s post, I’ll talk about an upcoming training opportunity that might interest the two of you.
Bruce, you mentioned having a tooth brush in your pocket. When we went to the PRMRRU last November I Gave my son Gavin a toothbrush to keep in his back pocket. I think he thought I was pulling a fast one on him but he did it.
In your class you were working with him adjusting his trigger press, which greatly improved his experience with revolvers. When you were done, you turned to him and something to the effect of “well at least you have a toothbrush in your back pocket Gavin. A good revolver man always has a toothbrush”. That sunk in and for the rest of the time, and here at home when he has a revolver, he has a toothbrush.
Be both got a lot of knowledge from your class. I highly recommend your class to others. Gavin and took your class first thing and boy am I glad that we did.
On a side note, Gavin continues to shoot and enjoy revolvers. He asked for and is receiving a new Colt Cobra for his Birthday/ high school graduation in May. I think it’s pretty cool that a teenager is so enthusiastic about shooting wheel guns.
Thanks again Sir.
Wade